The Gaming Den

Maxus wrote:

the_taken wrote:Anybody else remember the kryptonite lipstick that gave Superman kryptonite cancer. He goes and sits in a nuclear reactor as his version or radiation therapy.
Later on, a nuke goes off in his face and he becomes dangerously radioactive. He then takes a trip to the sun, which magnetically sucks the radiation particles off/out of him.

See, that is precisely why there is one Superman story I've ever enjoyed.

"The Death of Superman."

Forget all that "Return" garbage.

I liked the fact that they finally made a creature so strong, so physically tough, that he could make Superman bleed.

I liked "Superman: Red Son." Incidentally, is one of the most high powered superman versions, complete with superintelligence and zomgwtf super speed. Surprisingly, is also one of the few where he applies himself.

In fact... (spoiler!!)

when Supes fights Batman in that version, when Supes foils Batsy's plan to use red sun energy on him, Batman just kills himself with an explosive planted in his small intestine, knowing that loss is 100% certain, and preferring death to the alternative. So much for the favoritism advantage.

See, Batman is genuinely cool in his own little universe of Gotham, and Superman-level heros are (or can be) genuinely cool in their own super-powered realms where they fight super-villains and super-monsters with super-powers to super-save the super-world.

The problem isn't Batman. The problem is expecting Batman to hang with (not even equal - just be able to survive around) Superman without plot immunity and his Make People Stupid field.

Batman needs to have actual superpowers, or Superman needs to be demoted to "unusually strong and tough" - these are the only ways these two characters can realistically coexist.

The problem is that these characters weren't intended to be in the same universe when created. Originally, Batman was in Gotham and Superman was in Metropolis, and never the twain would meet. Then crossovers became hot, the Justice League was formed, and the writers were faced with a problem.

Since the Marvel heroes were designed with the idea of crossovers and a coherent universe in mind, all their high-powered heroes either had a weakness that made them mortal or spent most of their time in space fighting cosmic threats. Thor's about the only super-high-powered being in the Marvel Universe who hangs around Earth on a regular basis, IIRC.

Talisman wrote:See, Batman is genuinely cool in his own little universe of Gotham, and Superman-level heros are (or can be) genuinely cool in their own super-powered realms where they fight super-villains and super-monsters with super-powers to super-save the super-world.

Yes.

The problem isn't Batman. The problem is expecting Batman to hang with (not even equal - just be able to survive around) Superman without plot immunity and his Make People Stupid field.

Batman needs to have actual superpowers, or Superman needs to be demoted to "unusually strong and tough" - these are the only ways these two characters can realistically coexist.

Absolutely, they're not playing the same game, just like Fighter / Wizard in D&D.

Since the Marvel heroes were designed with the idea of crossovers and a coherent universe in mind

No.

First of all, the Marvel "X" continuity is pretty thoroughly not part of the rest of the Marvel universe. When Civil War happens, Magneto doesn't break the planet in half. When the House of M takes control, Hulk does not smash. But beyond that, characters do drift from one continuity to the other. Juggernaut is a frickin mutant in a lot of recent stories, and Scarlet Witch spends some time as an Avenger. Indeed, the Avengers is the portal by which a character can be transported from Spiderman's New York to Colossus' New York and back again.

But really, to call anything in Marvel "coherent" is really a stretch. Let's take this section from Spiderman's wikipedia entry:

Wikipedia wrote:Enemies frequently endanger his loved ones, with the Green Goblin managing to kill his girlfriend Gwen Stacy. Though haunted by her death, he eventually marries Mary Jane Watson, and much later reveals his civilian identity to the world, furthering his already numerous problems. His marriage to Mary Jane and public unmasking are later erased due to a deal made with the demon Mephisto, resulting in several adjustments to the timeline, such as the resurrection of Harry Osborn and the return of Peter's mechanical web-shooters.

Sigh.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:
First of all, the Marvel "X" continuity is pretty thoroughly not part of the rest of the Marvel universe. When Civil War happens, Magneto doesn't break the planet in half. When the House of M takes control, Hulk does not smash. But beyond that, characters do drift from one continuity to the other. Juggernaut is a frickin mutant in a lot of recent stories, and Scarlet Witch spends some time as an Avenger. Indeed, the Avengers is the portal by which a character can be transported from Spiderman's New York to Colossus' New York and back again.

I remember one time the Shadow King did something to all the telepaths in the world. When the then-current writer of the Avengers was ask about the effects on one of the then-current Avengers, he said "Yeah, he thought "Oh. An X-plot is effecting me!", took two aspirin and went to bed."

The Scarlet Witch, though, is primarily an Avenger, not an X-character. One of maybe 10 characters who are the backbone of the team. Beast is a better example for what you are saying (back in the 70s, Beast, in his blue-furred glory and while on the Avengers, was usually high and nailing every girl in sight. Not kidding.) He is clearly an X-character, what with being an original X-man and all, but has significant relationships with some characters outside the X-verse, like Wonderman.

Yeah, Comic books love the reset button. They kill people for shock value, but at some point they realized they killed a bunch of important characters and want to bring them back.

Its funny because in Marvel all of the low-level (read: interesting) people save the planet, and all of the high-level people (read:crazypowaz!) get shot into space and disappear.

Everyone once in a while a crazypowaz villian stops by (Apocalypse) and everyone together has to stop him. Or, alternatively, a high-powered character comes back from space and goes "oops, missed that one *zap*).

It's also interesting to note that crazypowaz villains can coexist with badass-normal heroes. but the reverse is not true. Every story with a giant super-boss at the end, from Beowulf to LotR to any given fantasy story, is essentially Batman vs Apocalypse (or some rough equivalent). It a straight-up fight, Gandalf or Aragorn or whoever would get the crap stomped out of them by Sauron, because Sauron owns them in terms of raw power. That's why they have to use cunning, stealth and the Power of LoveTM to save the day.

By contrast, Superman vs. the Penguin ends in one round if Supe's feeling lazy. There's no dramatic tension with uber-heroes taking on weenie villains, but uber-villains vs. weenie heroes is a staple of heroic tales.

That's a good point, but I also point out that it only remains true as long as the hero is not operating under rules. For example: Superman has Lex Luthor as an opponent. Not because he can't slap Lex around at any time, or indeed simply kill Lex outright on a moment's notice - but because Superman's actual challenge is not to beat Luthor up, but to beat Luthor legally. Superman's task is not to break Luthor's arm, but to prove that those forty cakes that Luthor has are stolen.

This is the staple of virtually all detective scenarios. Kate Monday of Mathnet has a frickin gun and so she can win a fight with her opponents in the time it takes her to draw and fire it. But doing that isn't a win, it's a loss. To succeed at the adventure she has to prove that villain's reported mileage on his car doesn't add up so that she can prove that the alibi is faked so that she can arrest him and send him to trial.

For the detective hero, super strength and even bullet immunity is almost completely meaningless. When your enemy is a villain because they are stealing money or molesting children, they don't really have to be any kind of direct threat to the protagonist to make for a good story or a compelling adventure.

-Username17

However, someone with super detective powers would crush nonsuper villains into dust just as super action heroes would crush action nonsuper villains into dust. Wouldn't be quite as easy, but it still is bad for the hero to be able to beat the villain at the contest when its remotely fair.

To make matters worse, while it may not be hugely important to "win" that Superman can deflect bullets with his biceps, it gives him a great advantage whenever someone shoots at him (which Lothar might well send a goon squad to do) that say, Batman, doesn't have.

Not really the same kind of drama and tension and worry as when bullets may fly at people (by either side and we care that they're flying) at all.

Koumei wrote:Also, it'd be cool if it ended with Death of Superman. Because "Holy shit, something permanent actually happens!" Really, the lack of any permanent or world-changing things makes it like 4E, every day is the same (wake up, beat villain up, save the world again, go to bed). Superman didn't even change (personality-wise) as a result of dying and coming back to life. Not at all. You could stop reading a month before Death, and start again a month after Resurrection, and wouldn't know anything had happened.

Because basically, nothing really had. Self-contained episodes, like a WB cartoon or a day in the life of 4E.

That's one of the main reasons I much prefer anime/manga for my weekly fix of superhumans beating crap out of each other. Things actually happen there, and have lasting consequences (even if the main cast is functionally immortal).

Elennsar wrote:To make matters worse, while it may not be hugely important to "win" that Superman can deflect bullets with his biceps, it gives him a great advantage whenever someone shoots at him (which Lothar might well send a goon squad to do) that say, Batman, doesn't have.

Actually Batman has been wearing a bullet proof vest since the early days. There is an old comic that almost has a Superman feel to it where Batman thinks to himself, "hasn't he ever heard of a bullet proof vest?"

Unless Batman has a vest that is literally bulletproof, as opposed to bullet impairing, then my comment still stands.

And the point is, there are still a lot of ways to hurt Batman. Sure, the odds that I could do this are close enough to zero as to be zero, but I could theoretically rip out his eyes and make him eat them.

Raw.

Superman, it is literally impossible for me.

FrankTrollman wrote: Kate Monday of Mathnet has a frickin gun and so she can win a fight with her opponents in the time it takes her to draw and fire it.

I'm shocked that anyone other than me has ever heard of that show.

Elennsar wrote:Unless Batman has a vest that is literally bulletproof, as opposed to bullet impairing, then my comment still stands.

In the old series (I wish I had my Joker collection book within visual sight at the moment) it was literally bulletproof but on the other hand the Joker was only using the average small caliber hand gun.

FrankTrollman wrote:

Since the Marvel heroes were designed with the idea of crossovers and a coherent universe in mind

No.

First of all, the Marvel "X" continuity is pretty thoroughly not part of the rest of the Marvel universe. When Civil War happens, Magneto doesn't break the planet in half. When the House of M takes control, Hulk does not smash. But beyond that, characters do drift from one continuity to the other. Juggernaut is a frickin mutant in a lot of recent stories, and Scarlet Witch spends some time as an Avenger. Indeed, the Avengers is the portal by which a character can be transported from Spiderman's New York to Colossus' New York and back again.

But really, to call anything in Marvel "coherent" is really a stretch. Let's take this section from Spiderman's wikipedia entry:

Wikipedia wrote:Enemies frequently endanger his loved ones, with the Green Goblin managing to kill his girlfriend Gwen Stacy. Though haunted by her death, he eventually marries Mary Jane Watson, and much later reveals his civilian identity to the world, furthering his already numerous problems. His marriage to Mary Jane and public unmasking are later erased due to a deal made with the demon Mephisto, resulting in several adjustments to the timeline, such as the resurrection of Harry Osborn and the return of Peter's mechanical web-shooters.

Sigh.

-Username17

I should have written more clearly. I meant that the *original* Marvel superheroes of the early 60s were designed with the idea of crossovers and existing in the same universe in mind. Thus, you don't have the Superman/Batman level of disparity among heroes who are expected to work together regularly. I'm not talking about the 40+ years of retcons and reboots.

And I agree that the introduction of the X-Men started shooting coherency to hell in the mid 60s. The whole mutant angle introduces a class of superheroes who are irrationally feared over all others ("Norse gods are okay, but I'm scared of mutants"). That's why I prefer the movies (at least the first two). They don't have to worry about how the mutants fit in with non-mutant heroes. Unfortunately, since Marvel is addicted to crossover appearances on general principles, and has to have the huge annual company-wide crossover event to sell books, treating the X-titles as a separate continuity doesn't work. I completely buy that a major comic book company, or some writers thereof, might try such a thing, but that's just a sign of how major comic book companies keep going further and further downhill.

I'm a fan of those guys who, in the era of "Take the focus off the artists/authors, and put the focus on the company label. Swap artists and authors around at random, to help quell their fanbases.", decided to tell Marvel and DC to shove it, and went off to make their own company and created Witchblade.

Now, I can't actually say whether or not Witchblade falls into those problems, because I only watched the anime that is based on the comics. But that had the nice "This is a story with a start and an end. People change. Some change into dead people." thing going on.

Oh, and in the Japanese version, they seriously edited more clothing onto the main character in her evil-demon-death-god mode (and removed it again for the American version). Seriously. What the fuck? In Sovjet Russia, cartoon censors YOU!

For a good time, read Psylocke's biography. And then read Jean Grey's.

Let me throw this out there as well. I think a Batman-esque Badass Normal could be able to handle a supervillain with nearly any single superpower (except for crap like hyperspeed, time-travel, and maybe mind control) - provided said supervillain has one, and only one, superpower.

Flying man? Sure. Immune to bullets? Absolutely. Laser-eyes? Batman can take him. Makes playing cards explode? Sounds like fun.

I'm thinking here of people like in the show Heroes. Each person - with a couple of exceptions - has exactly ONE superpower. They're awesome at it, and they use it in creative ways, but, f'rinstance, bullets can kill the flying man; the ice queen has to touch you to freezekill you; the regenerator can't be killed but she's no better offensively than a normal human.

The supers that cause trouble for the Batman concept aren't necessarily the hyperpowered ones - they're the multipowered ones. Superman has every power in the book, and pulls new ones out of his super-ass whenever he needs them. That's cheesey.

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote: Kate Monday of Mathnet has a frickin gun and so she can win a fight with her opponents in the time it takes her to draw and fire it.

I'm shocked that anyone other than me has ever heard of that show.

I caught the reference also, but IIRC, Monday and Frankly carried calculators, not guns.

But, yes, Frank, your point stands.

Game On,
fbmf

Koumei wrote:I'm a fan of those guys who, in the era of "Take the focus off the artists/authors, and put the focus on the company label. Swap artists and authors around at random, to help quell their fanbases.", decided to tell Marvel and DC to shove it, and went off to make their own company and created Witchblade.

Now, I can't actually say whether or not Witchblade falls into those problems, because I only watched the anime that is based on the comics. But that had the nice "This is a story with a start and an end. People change. Some change into dead people." thing going on.

I'm not too familiar with Witchblade and the Top Cow universe, but I understand that they basically have only three superpowered humans in their universe (whose powers all come from artifacts). In fact, there was a huge buzz when they recently introduced the third one. That helps keep a lid on the continuity craziness.

Talisman wrote:stuff

That is among the reason that I like Heroes (haven't seen the 3rd season yet, cable here is... flaky and expensive?) and The Lost Room. Everyone gets one power, and it can't be "Immune to Bullets" because that power is already taken (twice).

It doesn't matter how good you get at your power, normal people can still totally tackle you. If someone gets something completely awesome (Telekinesis, Time Travel, Super Speed), then it is up to the other characters to gang up on that person.

Superman, in all reality, is a bullshit hero. That concept can be fun in the sense that he can do anything, but protecting people and legal battles are kind of an issue. And yes, he has to forget that he has Super Speed most of the time. Super Speed isn't an instant-win all of the time1, but Super Speed and Can't Be Hurt is too good of a combo. Laser Eyebeams, Super Strength, and Time Travel are just fringe benefits at that point.

1 - you can still have a cage drop on you, have the ground electricuted, be sucked into a hurricane, get knocked out in your sleep, etc.

SunTzuWarmaster wrote:Superman, in all reality, is a bullshit hero. That concept can be fun in the sense that he can do anything, but protecting people and legal battles are kind of an issue. And yes, he has to forget that he has Super Speed most of the time. Super Speed isn't an instant-win all of the time1, but Super Speed and Can't Be Hurt is too good of a combo. Laser Eyebeams, Super Strength, and Time Travel are just fringe benefits at that point.

It's why I liked him better as an Anti-Villain in Red Son. With Lex Luthor as the Anti-Hero. Easily best Supes comic, at least of those that I know of. Altogether in a different league than the rest of the Supes stories, I think. Incidentally, in that version he's got all his best powers, and he doesn't forget that he has them. And he actually uses them to accomplish something of a scale befitting the scope of his powers.

And... ((major spoilers))

Superman doesn't forget he has powers, and Batman, knowing this when his plot to catch him off guard with red sun energy fails, just plain gives up and kills himself with an explosive planted in his small intestine, preferring death to the alternative of being "saved from himself" by Superman

SunTzuWarmaster wrote: Superman, in all reality, is a bullshit hero. That concept can be fun in the sense that he can do anything, but protecting people and legal battles are kind of an issue. And yes, he has to forget that he has Super Speed most of the time. Super Speed isn't an instant-win all of the time1, but Super Speed and Can't Be Hurt is too good of a combo. Laser Eyebeams, Super Strength, and Time Travel are just fringe benefits at that point.

1 - you can still have a cage drop on you, have the ground electricuted, be sucked into a hurricane, get knocked out in your sleep, etc.

Well super speed and super reflexes is basically an unstoppable combo. If it's to the point where you can get surprised and someone can take a cheap shot on you, then super speed can be ok, but if you're also immune to being surprised, it's basically broken.